23 Answers

  1. I read the recommendations – and now I don't want to live myself)

    Within the framework of determinism, there is no dissuading suicide: the desire to kill yourself, your desire to dissuade, and all your arguments are determined.

    The only way out is to question determinism itself. Its weak point is the idea of causality itself. This idea is simply a consequence of our habit that some events follow others, and there is no hard evidence for it. Typical error expressed in the formula post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, then due to this). The critique of causality has been repeated many times in the history of thought: in Sextus Empiricus, in Nagarjuna, in Guo Xiang, in al-Ghazali, in Nicholas of Hautrecourt, in Malebranche, in Hume and Kant. Modern science, strictly speaking, does not use the idea of causality, preferring correlation. And if there is no causality, there is no determinism. Determinism is an outdated mechanistic doctrine, an 18th-century throwback. Its last serious representative is Pierre-Simon Laplace.

    But what about determinism? Trends, probabilities, and relative dependencies. Some, however, tend generally to randomness, indeterminism and chaos-the fashion for this periodically flares up over the past hundred years. After that, however, you may also not want to live. Which, in fact, suggests that the desire to kill oneself is primary, and its metaphysical justifications are deeply secondary.

  2. The philosopher Charles Hartshorn makes this simple argument that it makes no difference whether determinism is true or false.

    People do things-Certain events affect what they do-and they don't know what they're doing.

    There is one predestined thing – our coming death. We can see how it affects our decision-making: before I die, I want to raise my son, build a house, plant a tree, see my beloved one last time, and so on.

    Now imagine that everything is predetermined. How will this affect our decision-making? No way. Everything is preordained, and so … what? A person can't even eat an apple “because everything is preordained”. First, he eats an apple, and then explains it to himself by saying that ” everything is predetermined.” And absolutely any other act can be explained in the same way.

    That is, the influence of the belief in the determinism of the world on a person's actions and decisions is always a rationalization after the fact, an explanation to oneself of what has already been done. It is enough not to make such a rationalization.

  3. Here, in the comments, someone mentioned that “cause-effect” is only a property of our perception, a habit. David Hume wrote about this. But Kant explained this very well in his Critique of Pure Reason. Indeed, everything has its own reason. You can't find any events that don't have a cause. But cause and effect are what we know from experience through sense perception. That is, cause and effect exist in the world of phenomena, in the way we perceive the world. But our will is not in the world of phenomena that we perceive by the method of sensory perception. That is why scientists can not conduct an experiment that would confirm the absence of free will. No matter what experiment they set up, it will always be in the world of phenomena, in the world that affects our senses. In other words, if we throw a stone, it will fly – and this is confirmed by experience. But the very decision whether to throw a stone or not is beyond our experience, it is in the world of ideas that are not determined by the laws of the phenomena of the external world, but can influence as a cause our behavior in the external world.

    I am, of course, not a Kant, so I can only hope that I have managed to put into words my own (taken from Kant) idea.

    By the way, it is difficult to argue with Kant's argument that in the absence of free will, no moral behavior would be possible. A person would not be able to restrain himself from a profitable dastardly act, provided that no one finds out about it. But people, even if not all, are capable of honest behavior, even when it is much more profitable to act dishonestly.

  4. “Well, look. You have understood the determinism of the world.

    This means that your decision is determined by the natural course of events, and is not a product of either your will or your intellect. And what is the value of such a “solution” and its implementation? None at all. Why go along with the primordial chaos?�

    But if you act contrary to “predestination”, if you stay alive-then it means that you still did not understand something, and predestination is not such a predestination…�

    So you will spend the rest of your life studying your ability to act contrary to predestination.”

  5. The reason for not wanting to live is deeper than his understanding of the world.

    The determinism of the world is only an excuse for him.

    Find the real cause and fix it.

    Suicidal thoughts don't mean action.

  6. The determinism of the world is not so simple. It all depends on the point of view. Even in quantum mechanics, there is a multi-world interpretation that assumes a multiverse described by a fully deterministic wave function. You just need to understand that this function does not imply the existence of a certain Laplace quantum demon that sees it, it is just a mathematical abstraction. For any real observer, the world is non-deterministic.

    But I think a fully deterministic world would be more comforting than a non-deterministic one. Imagine that you can rewind time, returning the world to its previous state. Completely, including your inner world, memory, thoughts, ideas, knowledge, beliefs, etc. Would you behave in the same way as in rewound time or in a different way? I'd feel safer if I was sure I'd be doing the same thing. Even if I made mistakes that led to disastrous consequences, which I regret. But that doesn't seem to be the way the world works. Our behavior depends on fundamentally unpredictable randomness. And I think that we can only locally, to a certain extent, separate ourselves from these accidents, referring them to something external. Globally, they are ultimately part of our nature, part of our will.

    And that brings me to the last idea I wanted to give. The regularities and accidents that determine our behavior do not negate the reality of our will. Because they are our will, or rather that part of them that is directly responsible for how we make decisions and implement them. No one denies the reality of the forest because it is made up of trees. Precisely because the forest is made up of trees, it is as real as the trees themselves. Precisely because our will is determined by the laws of nature, it is as real as the laws of nature themselves. In a sense, each of us is a small and weak law of nature, but still a law of nature.

  7. The first part of the question is superfluous. What does the determinism of the world, understanding and desire have to do with it? How are they related to each other? To the desire/unwillingness to live, this applies no more than everything else. The problem is only in the desire, not what it is caused by. The whole point is that any living system cannot strive for self-destruction (especially consciously). The desire for self-destruction can only arise in an immature self-consciousness with a distorted perception of reality. Therefore, dissuading is ineffective. It is necessary to develop self-awareness and the ability to disidentify (go beyond subjective perception).

  8. The desire to leave this reality arises from a lack of information. If there is a lack of information, then a person probably will not be able to realize the determinism of the reality in which he exists. Provide any person with information that will motivate them to take any actions and that's it, they will be busy and there will be no room in their head for thoughts of suicide. For example, set them the task of identifying the reason why something is happening this way and not otherwise. Or just ask a bunch of questions, everyone knows that the maximum questions are asked by children who are generally far from the topic of self-destruction.

  9. So see the third part of the matrix together. The scene with Merovingen. He also said there in Russian that people did not learn. Manage your life. Enable logic. You need to learn how to manage. In general, your friend needs to become a logical person. And if he is stupid… We need to develop the brain. Don't die now, without brains

  10. The beauty of determinism is that predestination is made up of so many cosmic presuppositions that only God, and certainly not man, can process them and operate with them. That is, of course, everything is predetermined. But what exactly – in general, the devil knows. And here it would be worth switching your attention. God knows how much effort we will put in there or here, and what the result will be. But we don't know that. And what is known for us is that it will be as we, personally, I, and you, decide. And this is free will. We don't know exactly what we're capable of, or if we're strong enough. But we can choose whether to make an effort or not. Our choices are predetermined, but we don't know what exactly is predetermined. And this uncertainty gives you freedom.�

    In short. Everything is deterministic at the level of the cosmos / God / universe. At the level of the individual, we are ruled by free choice and personal power.

    P.S. it's quite intelligent, of course, to be cut out because of such garbage as determinism, but it's completely pointless. This is a weak, weak-willed act. So tell your friend that if he leaves, I won't respect him.

  11. If I understood the determinism of the world, I would live like a king, but, unfortunately, there is no determinism.

    And if this brilliant person still got to the bottom of the truth-let him go to the casino and guess at least ten times in a row the numbers that will appear on roulette. Maybe a couple of million dollars will convince him to live a little longer.

  12. Take her to a psychiatrist. I don't understand why everyone writes only about determinism in the comments. No matter what a person understands, no matter how “full” he is, the desire to commit suicide is not a consequence of his enlightenment, but of a malfunction in the brain, a breakdown in the psyche. And here we need the help of specialists. Suicidal thoughts are an indication for hospitalization. You don't have to wait for a suicide attempt – it can be successful.

  13. Damn familiar situation. In short, tell such a person that the meaning of our life is happiness, and the consequences and causalities of the universe do not say that life will be unhappy. What if this person manages to win a million dollars?

  14. Explain that the world is not deterministic.�

    You can prove this by using three theses:: 1) the world (universe) is a system of dynamic chaos; 2) subatomic particles have the property of quantum uncertainty; 3) subatomic particles affect the macro world.�

    1. Dynamic chaos systems have an important property: the smallest change in the starting conditions in the system changes the final result after a certain time. An example of such a system can be clouds and weather, which is why it is impossible to predict what the weather will be like in a few years on a certain day. But the system of dynamic chaos is still formally deterministic (deterministic chaos), which means that if you do not allow errors at all (at all, at all, even by one divided by the googolplex to the power of googolplex), then you can accurately predict all the states of this system.�

    2. But at the atomic level, there are particles that have the nature of true randomness, they can exist in several places at once as a “probability cloud”. Interestingly, A. Einstein did not recognize the truth of randomness behind atomic particles and believed that there are some hidden parameters that determine them, but in 1972 (and 2008) it was experimentally proved that they do not exist (Bell's inequality).�

    3. Nevertheless, atomic particles are super small, so perhaps they have no effect on the macro world and their uncertainty does not interfere with our world? Of course, this is not the case. in order to predict the weather for a thousand years, it is necessary to calculate the movement of all the molecules in the ocean and atmosphere, without a single error. You also need to know at what point which faton of light will fall on which molecule in order to know at what point which of them will break off from the ocean surface. But since light is taken to the sun as a result of nuclear fusion, the process of nuclear particles, it is not possible to predict the formation of each faton and its exact hit on the surface or in the earth's atmosphere.

    Of course, we can say that a single person is determined by their genes and environment (like a “Skinner's pigeon”) (and even then not completely: complex processes at the micro level, fractal genes that set growth algorithms, but do not determine specific forms of implementation ( by the way, fractal genes are responsible for forming the brain, so identical twins will not have indentical brains, like fingerprints) – all this also introduces randomness), but society as a whole is a system of dynamic chaos with the influence of random factors. This means that you can fairly accurately predict the behavior of a single person, knowing exactly the influence of genes and environment, but you can't predict which person will be born in a hundred years, where, what their genes will be, what the influence of the environment will be, what they will become and what they will do.

  15. Tell this person that what they have understood is false information. Just because he realized that the world is deterministic doesn't mean that it is. And if he insists on his own, then let him assume that the cause determines the effect in his hands and brains, and he has the ability to regulate the cause and get a good result for himself. Well, if he realized that one day he would certainly die, then let him know that it is not good to interfere with the life of the eternally young, it is necessary to know the honor, he stayed for a while and went home.

  16. If the person managed to understand (really understand!) the theory of the determinism of the world, so he is able to understand that randomness is a mathematical fact, which is simply stupid to doubt. Therefore, suicide doesn't solve anything at all.

    But if a person just thinks that he has understood something about the determinism of the world, then you need to load his body and mind to the very limit, so that there is no room or strength left for stupid ideas.

  17. And this is not how it is not connected. Determinism and suicide.

    Suicide is personally related to a person's marital status + that he also feels like one.

    At the same time, however, he cannot know exactly what is predestined, that he will commit suicide, or vice versa. His knowledge of the world does not depend on how deterministic it is.

  18. It's very embarrassing to ask, but why should the idea of determinism make a person want to commit suicide?

    For me, determinism is very good, if it still worked on the scale of our lives in such a way that we could, for example, take a winning lottery ticket or win a couple of lemon dollars in a casino – so in general it would be a fairy tale.

    But so yes, by and large everything in the world stems from a causal relationship, by and large-fuck what you can predict and guess.

    I think your friend has a different reason, maybe he just doesn't tell you. Maybe he doesn't know, but he should look somewhere else.

  19. If he kills himself, he will be reborn by someone (this is not some kind of Buddhism, but a stupid fact, because he was born, so there was someone before him, and after him there will be someone). Living in this life, he at least knows about determinism and can live with this thought. And when he is reborn after death, he will forget everything and live like a sucker, not understanding anything. Why does he need this? On the contrary, it is necessary to cling to a life in which you have understood something for as long as possible.

  20. What is the determinism of the world? I do not know, but literally-the world is devoid of terms. Because of this, not wanting to live is somehow stupid. To dissuade, I suppose, is useless. It is better to “plant” it for a short period of time. In the pre-trial detention center, and then in the colony, he will not be allowed to commit suicide. And when he “leans back”, he will begin to appreciate life.

  21. Suicide is not a sin, but a perversion. And it is very good when the person himself, who considers himself not worthy of the great divine gift of life, saves society the trouble of purging it of its own kind. Much worse are drug addicts who shit for much longer and more. These are the ones who need additional “help”.

  22. it is unlikely that you really understood something.

    2 He who thinks that he knows anything does not yet know anything as he ought to know it.
    (1 Corinthians 8: 2)

    human intelligence is a contradictory thing and should not be blindly trusted.
    As a believer, I look at life through the ” instructions “that the” manufacturer ” wrote. And He always offers a choice – so it was in the Garden of Eden, where man was placed between two trees – the tree of Life and the tree of death, and so it was in the so-called Old Testament:

    15 Behold, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.

    19 I call heaven and earth to witness before you today: I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life, that you and your descendants may live
    (Deut 30: 19)

    The same tradition continued in the New Testament:

    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
    (Mar 16: 15,16)

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    17 For God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
    18 He who believes in him is not judged, but he who does not believe is already condemned, because he did not believe in the name of the only Begotten Son of God.
    19 But this is the judgment, that light has come into the world; but men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For whosoever doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not unto the light, lest his works be reproved, because they are evil.
    21 But he that walketh in righteousness cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest; for they are done in God.

    so try to understand whether you are going to the light or to the darkness.
    I wish you real, not false, wisdom and true knowledge of being.

  23. Determinism and indeterminism are extreme positions of thinking. Extreme thinking positions are delusions. Reality in the middle. Determinism works well on large-scale world views. On the contrary, indeterminism works well on the smallest scales of consideration of the elements that make up the world. To put it simply — we are very good at predicting where the big sun will be in the near future, but we are very bad at predicting where a single tiny photon released by the sun will be. The more links there are between elements, the better they fit into the deterministic model. Tell your friend to study the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and quantum physics in general. It offers a different way of perception of the world, based on a probabilistic approach to the description of phenomena. That is, it recognizes the impossibility of absolutely complete conscious fixation of any phenomenon. Instead, it is proposed to study a phenomenon as something that can happen with a certain degree of probability, which you can try to calculate.

    In addition, your friend, as a determinist, can look for the real reason for his displeasure with life. Why he doesn't like his current state and think about what can be done to make the new state comfortable and convenient for his mind.

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